Post by eliuri on Jul 1, 2015 17:28:17 GMT -5
I took liberty of opening a new thread on this. Its really continuation of Jools' thread on Citalopram in the "Medications" section.
chronicdizziness.freeforums.net/thread/93/citalopramink
================================
Hi there Manju, and thanks for joining in on this.
It is true that the orientation of Thomas Hanna's book:
www.amazon.com/Somatics-Reawakening-Control-Movement-Flexibility/dp/0738209570/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435784943&sr=8-1&keywords=hanna+thomas
is on muscle control, especially when it comes to the exercises he presents there. But I think the notion of "sensorimotor amnesia" and that of the three maladaptive reflexes ("green light", "red light" , and "traumatic" reflexes) may well pertain to other functions as well. Several with CSD have already told me that the very phrase: "sensorimotor amnesia" rings intuitively true to them..
You will find in Thomas Hanna's book, towards end of the chapter on the exercises, a series of sequences which is meant to retrain the way we walk. "Contralateral walking" , for example..Some of it might even be constructive with this condition..
Thomas Brandt, who first developed the notion of Phobic Postural Vertigo (now called CSD) emphasized the maladaptive postural control aspect of CSD. This has not been rejected by the Staab/Mayo Clinic group. So retraining the standing/walking postural balancing strategies would logically be a key to rehabilitation.
The Mayo Clinic originally did emphasize neurotransmitters and SSRI medication, but is now looking into the sway patterns as well and biofeedback to train (or retrain) in normalizing those.
Sway patterns are a neuro-muscular phenomenon and controlled by reflex, threat assessment , and emotional state.
Another reason I'm drawn to potential application of Somatics (in its more general sense..) is that many if not all with CSD do have issues with muscle pain/tension. And there's some scientific basis to my claim that this pain/tension makes the CSD worse. Possibly perpetuates it.
"I think the book of Somatics(google books has few pages online) talks about 8 exercises not sure what they are exactly...I was just doing wash rag and couple of them...today I borrowed Martha Petersons book move without pain from the library...I will try to make a regimen for myself from this book exercises."
Those are very difficult for me to do from the book. I've used utube videos for those, most from Martha Peterson, who I think presents them most clearly. Theres also Utube collection by John Loupos who does go into more details on the finer points, but is not as interesting, in my opinion.
Once I get the basics of the sequence, I simply listen to the utube video while actually doing it lying down..And follow along.
My attention to Somatics was drawn by a fellow on a Myofascial Pain forum (not sure its ok if I give his name, so I wont). I've been doing only three or four of them. Plus one additional Somatic sequence from the Felderkrais: "Awareness Through Movement" (ATM) series.
========
I'll list the ones I've been doing, but I'm sure many of the others might be beneficial as well:
1) Arch and Flatten: (I used Laura Gates video, but Peterson's good too)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Y3NrRu72o
2) Pulling Rope (Martha Peterson):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUn-3NLbwRo
3) Washrag: (Martha Peterson)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5J2DXdub18
Here's John Loupos collection of Hanna Somatics:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCE8s0jsMMv6QNS2Q8H6tRkw
Theyre arranged it seems in reverse order of how he meant them to be done. So first one is on bottom, next one above that...etc..
===========
I've also become interested in the works of Moshe Felderkrais, who was Thomas Hanna's mentor. He has a much more complex system than Hanna's. Incidentally, it seems the early founders of Felderkrais were well aware of postural away as well as something much more subtle called : "corollary discharge" (efference copy signals). Which is central to Dr Thomas Brandt's hypothetical mechanism for PPV.
In any case, here's the one Felderkrais-based sequence I taught myself last night. It did have some profound effects on my shoulder pain:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHF-kpuwD5o
It entails visualizing two clocks,, one above your nose and another below your sacrum and rotating both head and pelvis very gently and subtly both CW and CCW.
==============
I did get very quick , dramatic results with regard to the shoulder/neck pain from the above Hanna and Feldenkrais sequences. I can't yet be sure if this is placebo or not of course, and it relapses if i get very upset or walk too long when the ground is "rocking". Seems the dizziness itself can cause relapse of the pain.
==========
Manju said:
"One more thing I observed on myself is I feel more imbalanced on flat solid surfaces like wood and comfortable on carpet,grass. not sure why my brain thinks I am fine on rough surface but vulnerable on solid. Is it the muscles of feet that has sensory amnesia to particular surfaces ."I definitely have that!!! A few others with this have noted similar pattern..(If I'm not mistaken Jools noticed this as well in his own situation?) The more unstable the surface, such as soil, grass, snow, etc. , the less "rocking" I feel. Also , if going up or down an incline or steps, and even if its hard, unyielding surface, I hardly feel any sense of unbalance or disequilibrium.
Could be that the hardness of the surface or its texture is the perceptual stimulus for us here..Just as for some it can be bridges, traffic, visual patterns, social situations..So why not surface texture as the "perceptual stimulus" (which is one of Brandt's six defining characteristics for PPV.
Could also be that general finding in multicenter studies on PPV
that
"The more difficult the balancing task, the more normal the balance"
which may be why many don't feel it while doing complex exercises or sports.
I wonder if there are other vestibular disorders which manifest like that?
Might this be a way to distinguish CSD from MAV, for example?
===================
Anyhow, I'm awaiting my: Awareness Through Movement book by Moshe Felderkrais in a few days....Perhaps among the 550 or so sequences he taught in his own lifetime there's hope for CSD as well? Or more likely, the use of that methodology might lead to designing some that do help.
Hope people at least check this approach out and see where it goes from there....
Best wishes:
~eli
chronicdizziness.freeforums.net/thread/93/citalopramink
================================
Jul 1, 2015 13:25:46 GMT -4 manju said:
Hi Eli and Jools,
Thanks a lot Eli for enlightening on this ...I feel sensory motor amnesia seems to fit CSD logically... I have also started doing couple of Hanna Somatics and feel some relief with related to pain...Hanna Somatics does not specifically mention about dizziness but it talks about imbalance, disquilibrium.Seems like the Focusing on contraction and release of muscles is the key...I think the book of Somatics(google books has few pages online) talks about 8 exercises not sure what they are exactly...I was just doing wash rag and couple of them...today I borrowed Martha Peterson's book move without pain from the library...I will try to make a regimen for myself from this book exercises... one thing I can say from my own observation is, may be bit by bit(very minor) our mind,body are moving away from this condition(if we are less tensed and keep ourself active) as I see myself that one year ago I was scared to go to Walmart etc as it seemed the racks were jumping on me but now I am comfortable traversing through the aisles. I think if we restrict ourselves to inactivity, it will not change and may become worse...Keeping the anxiety low may also be the key as it will lessen down the chronic muscle tension.....
One more thing I observed on myself is I feel more imbalanced on flat solid surfaces like wood and comfortable on carpet,grass. not sure why my brain thinks I am fine on rough surface but vulnerable on solid. Is it the muscles of feet that has sensory amnesia to particular surfaces ....Martha Peterson talks about walking on barefoot ...I think I should do that as much as possible.
thanks
Manju
Hi Eli and Jools,
Thanks a lot Eli for enlightening on this ...I feel sensory motor amnesia seems to fit CSD logically... I have also started doing couple of Hanna Somatics and feel some relief with related to pain...Hanna Somatics does not specifically mention about dizziness but it talks about imbalance, disquilibrium.Seems like the Focusing on contraction and release of muscles is the key...I think the book of Somatics(google books has few pages online) talks about 8 exercises not sure what they are exactly...I was just doing wash rag and couple of them...today I borrowed Martha Peterson's book move without pain from the library...I will try to make a regimen for myself from this book exercises... one thing I can say from my own observation is, may be bit by bit(very minor) our mind,body are moving away from this condition(if we are less tensed and keep ourself active) as I see myself that one year ago I was scared to go to Walmart etc as it seemed the racks were jumping on me but now I am comfortable traversing through the aisles. I think if we restrict ourselves to inactivity, it will not change and may become worse...Keeping the anxiety low may also be the key as it will lessen down the chronic muscle tension.....
One more thing I observed on myself is I feel more imbalanced on flat solid surfaces like wood and comfortable on carpet,grass. not sure why my brain thinks I am fine on rough surface but vulnerable on solid. Is it the muscles of feet that has sensory amnesia to particular surfaces ....Martha Peterson talks about walking on barefoot ...I think I should do that as much as possible.
thanks
Manju
It is true that the orientation of Thomas Hanna's book:
www.amazon.com/Somatics-Reawakening-Control-Movement-Flexibility/dp/0738209570/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435784943&sr=8-1&keywords=hanna+thomas
is on muscle control, especially when it comes to the exercises he presents there. But I think the notion of "sensorimotor amnesia" and that of the three maladaptive reflexes ("green light", "red light" , and "traumatic" reflexes) may well pertain to other functions as well. Several with CSD have already told me that the very phrase: "sensorimotor amnesia" rings intuitively true to them..
You will find in Thomas Hanna's book, towards end of the chapter on the exercises, a series of sequences which is meant to retrain the way we walk. "Contralateral walking" , for example..Some of it might even be constructive with this condition..
Thomas Brandt, who first developed the notion of Phobic Postural Vertigo (now called CSD) emphasized the maladaptive postural control aspect of CSD. This has not been rejected by the Staab/Mayo Clinic group. So retraining the standing/walking postural balancing strategies would logically be a key to rehabilitation.
The Mayo Clinic originally did emphasize neurotransmitters and SSRI medication, but is now looking into the sway patterns as well and biofeedback to train (or retrain) in normalizing those.
Sway patterns are a neuro-muscular phenomenon and controlled by reflex, threat assessment , and emotional state.
Another reason I'm drawn to potential application of Somatics (in its more general sense..) is that many if not all with CSD do have issues with muscle pain/tension. And there's some scientific basis to my claim that this pain/tension makes the CSD worse. Possibly perpetuates it.
"I think the book of Somatics(google books has few pages online) talks about 8 exercises not sure what they are exactly...I was just doing wash rag and couple of them...today I borrowed Martha Petersons book move without pain from the library...I will try to make a regimen for myself from this book exercises."
Once I get the basics of the sequence, I simply listen to the utube video while actually doing it lying down..And follow along.
My attention to Somatics was drawn by a fellow on a Myofascial Pain forum (not sure its ok if I give his name, so I wont). I've been doing only three or four of them. Plus one additional Somatic sequence from the Felderkrais: "Awareness Through Movement" (ATM) series.
========
I'll list the ones I've been doing, but I'm sure many of the others might be beneficial as well:
1) Arch and Flatten: (I used Laura Gates video, but Peterson's good too)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Y3NrRu72o
2) Pulling Rope (Martha Peterson):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUn-3NLbwRo
3) Washrag: (Martha Peterson)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5J2DXdub18
Here's John Loupos collection of Hanna Somatics:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCE8s0jsMMv6QNS2Q8H6tRkw
Theyre arranged it seems in reverse order of how he meant them to be done. So first one is on bottom, next one above that...etc..
===========
I've also become interested in the works of Moshe Felderkrais, who was Thomas Hanna's mentor. He has a much more complex system than Hanna's. Incidentally, it seems the early founders of Felderkrais were well aware of postural away as well as something much more subtle called : "corollary discharge" (efference copy signals). Which is central to Dr Thomas Brandt's hypothetical mechanism for PPV.
In any case, here's the one Felderkrais-based sequence I taught myself last night. It did have some profound effects on my shoulder pain:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHF-kpuwD5o
It entails visualizing two clocks,, one above your nose and another below your sacrum and rotating both head and pelvis very gently and subtly both CW and CCW.
==============
I did get very quick , dramatic results with regard to the shoulder/neck pain from the above Hanna and Feldenkrais sequences. I can't yet be sure if this is placebo or not of course, and it relapses if i get very upset or walk too long when the ground is "rocking". Seems the dizziness itself can cause relapse of the pain.
==========
Manju said:
"One more thing I observed on myself is I feel more imbalanced on flat solid surfaces like wood and comfortable on carpet,grass. not sure why my brain thinks I am fine on rough surface but vulnerable on solid. Is it the muscles of feet that has sensory amnesia to particular surfaces ."
Could be that the hardness of the surface or its texture is the perceptual stimulus for us here..Just as for some it can be bridges, traffic, visual patterns, social situations..So why not surface texture as the "perceptual stimulus" (which is one of Brandt's six defining characteristics for PPV.
Could also be that general finding in multicenter studies on PPV
that
"The more difficult the balancing task, the more normal the balance"
which may be why many don't feel it while doing complex exercises or sports.
I wonder if there are other vestibular disorders which manifest like that?
Might this be a way to distinguish CSD from MAV, for example?
===================
Anyhow, I'm awaiting my: Awareness Through Movement book by Moshe Felderkrais in a few days....Perhaps among the 550 or so sequences he taught in his own lifetime there's hope for CSD as well? Or more likely, the use of that methodology might lead to designing some that do help.
Hope people at least check this approach out and see where it goes from there....
Best wishes:
~eli